Douglas MacArthur demanded Japan's unconditional surrender but was opposed to dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. He demanded the Japanese emperor publicly state he was not divine, yet refused to try him for war crimes. The British wanted to hang him.
This approach pacified the Japanese but didn't humiliate them. They even lionized MacArthur and rebuilt their country.
Could a similar strong approach toward ordinary Palestinians and other Arabs have a similar positive outcome?
What's sad is caring so little for the truth that you would equate Israel with the Nazis. You accuse me of nihilism, but it's Hamas that celebrates death and you defend them.
This from the person who eagerly calls for the murder of 2 Million people in the Gaza Strip. And probably also yearns for the 3 Million in the West Bank to be murdered as well. But why stop there -- how about the 11 Million in Jordan or the 6 Million in Lebanon. And don't forget about the 88 Million in Iran or the 43 Million in Iraq. When the neo-Nazis start dreaming of mass murder, one wonders if there is any limit to their bloodlust.
Please. They'll surrender way before that many die. But starting with Gaza is a moral imperative, which we will again fail to carry out and this will all repeat again in a few years as it has done so for decades because the West is crippled by altruistic morality and has its own share of religious conservatives who would undermine any competent response annihilating the West's enemies.
“We love death like our enemies love life! We love Martyrdom, the way in which [Hamas] leaders died.” Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh
"Today you [Israelis] are fighting divine soldiers, who love death for Allah like you love life, and who compete among themselves for Martyrdom like you flee from death." Hamas leader Muhammad Deif
Sober response? What would that look like? How many lives of its own citizens should Israel sacrifice to this "sober response"? If it takes leveling Gaza like the Romans leveled Carthage to protect its citizens and sovereignty, then that's what Israel MUST do.
"If it takes leveling Gaza like the Romans leveled Carthage to protect its citizens and sovereignty, then that's what Israel MUST do."
It is sad how much some people revere the Nazis and their approach to "governing" conquered territory. Yes, Israel was founded on the mass murder of thousands and thousands of Muslims and the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands (the Nazi practice) -- and they celebrate it to this day. So we can be sure that we will see thousands of Palestinians massacred over the next several months as Netanyahu and his cronies exact "revenge" on the Palestinians with the active encouragement of the United States government and the governments of the other "civilized", developed nations. And I'm sure you will be celebrating every single death.
Nazis were religious conservatives (fundamentally similar to Hamas) who were murdering innocent people as part of their irrational, mystical and collectivist world view.
Destroying the Nazi's, including bombing men women and children by the millions, was a moral imperative. Likewise, destroying Hamas, including any of their men women and children, is a moral imperative. It MUST be done, and it is righteous to do so. As with the Nazis', so with Hamas, the moral responsibility for any of their innocent dead is on them.
And Israel was NOT founded on mass murder of Muslims. Israel was founded on land purchased from absentee landlords (mostly Turkish), by British Jews. Then they drained the swamps, built towns, etc, etc.
Everything else, is BS and lies, used as rationalizations by the same religious conservative, mystics and collectivists as always.
Even the term "Palestinian" is a reference to a Greek ethnic group that first settled the area (then called Judaea) and fought wars with the Jewish tribes. The land was renamed Palestine by the Romans as part of their attempts to subjugate the Jewish population.
It has nothing to do with the Arabs squatting their today. They are NOT Palestinians.
But once Germany surrendered the bombing stopped, did it not? The goal is for the aggressor in this case Palestinians to seek survival and thus peace by unconditional surrender.
Ofcourse. But they will never have an incentive to surrender if we don't show that we're prepared to really destroy them completely. Then they will cave so quickly that heads will actually roll that this wasn't done decades ago.
But sadly mainstream morality (altruism) and Western foreign policy experts who are utterly corrupted by this, will never support decisive action like this.
I look at this all with jaw agape. I cannot imagine a solution. My fantasy would be to bundle up the Israeli hard right, and Hamas, and send them all to Antarctica in perpetuity. But of course it is a fantasy.
I think that Hamas is repulsive. But an impossible solution is indeed not a solution. Hamas clearly has some serious support among Gazans. Is that majority support, or only significant minority support? I cannot say. If one accepts that destroying Hamas is even possible, one cannot, I think, avoid the conclusion that in order to destroy it, a huge number of innocent human beings must also be sacrificed, the result of which is as likely, IMHO, to strengthen support for Hamas among the population, as to destroy Hamas.
But if that was true then by your logic Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would be stronger than ever today.
The opposite is the case. They were destroyed, even at the cost of bombing entire cities to rubble, including their women and children, and even using nukes.
This is because back then we had the moral clarity to understand that the responsibility for everything that happens is on THEM.
Hamas, Russia, etc, today's villains, are not anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. They are miniscule and pathetic. It is inexcusable that they all have not been destroyed and broken into unconditional surrender decades ago.
So, I think not only is destroying Hamas possible, but it should be much easier than previous similar enemies we have successfully (and righteously) destroyed.
But more importantly, I think it is the MORAL thing to do and to be calling for.
If the destruction of Hamas is your single-minded goal and you don't care about anything else then you are basically saying that you also don't care about the destruction of the Palestinian people. That is "final solution" talk, more akin the the Nazis.
When the Nazi's engaged in their final solution, it was an initiatory and mass-rights violation. That's what made it immoral/evil.
Doing the same thing to Nazi's (like Hamas) is both retaliatory and in defence of individual rights. That makes it a MORAL act.
Of course, unlike Nazis we will accept unconditional surrender but if no surrender is forthcoming then it must be done and on their heads be it. But the point is that these are not the same, these are OPPOSITE acts because of initiation vs retaliation and violating rights vs protecting rights.
But you don't see it this way because you've accepted uncritically the mainstream morality of altruism. I.e. you believe that sacrificing the individual for a greater good, or sacrificing an innocent man for the sins of others is moral.
So, by this logic, Israeli's will have to be sacrificed for the sins of Hamas.
By this logic, you end up viewing the Nazis/Hamas as victims because they are perpetrators and actual victims (Israelis acting in retaliation) as being Nazi's for the crime of being victims acting in retaliation.
It's twisted and backwards.
Until the mainstream can see the evils of altruism and how twisted it make everything, it's not possible to even coherently approach these subjects and this cycle of violence will continue.
Ah! I'm talking to an Objectivist, I see....Probably a Peikoffian, which means in your own moral universe doesn't share ordinary moral intuitions or the long intellectual tradition of just war theory or other serious ethical reflections on war.
Most people, Israelis included, are wrong on this point. It's not ancient Jewish roots, or the ridiculous idea that god promised them the land which gives Israel its legitimacy to govern. It's its form of government; one which, despite its many short-comings, aims to protect the rights of all its citizens, not just Jews. It's no surprise Israel has become a country of opportunity and flourishing.
But, of course, when Israel attacked the Liberty and massacred the 34 crewmen, the U.S. government had no problem with it. It appears there is no crime that Israel could commit that the U.S. would not ignore or embrace.
Oh come on. That was a case of mistaken identity and Israel admitted it, plus paid compensation to victims families. And they were hardly massacred in the way that Hamas targeted hapless unarmed Israeli civilians.
Sure it was ... and we know that this is the case because Israel and the U.S. Government (and Iraq had massive stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction that we stopped from wiping out the U.S. by mere minutes) said it was and we know that they are pure as the wind blown snow and therefore anything they say is "Word of God" truth. And no one was murdered in 1948 and no ethnic cleansing occurred, again, because Israel says so. As I said, for much of the U.S. and for the U.S. Government there is no crime Israel has ever committed or could ever commit that would not be ignored or embraced -- just as you have shown here.
"Despite its trauma, Israel should use appropriate, not overwhelming, force"
But the only appropriate force IS overwhelming.
Anyone not calling for the destruction of Hamas, as quickly and brutally as possible, is basically an apologist for Hamas.
Hamas needs to be destroyed and tried for war crimes like the Nazis were.
If I recall, measures were taken to prevent Nazi war criminals from committing suicide. (Hermann Goering managed to pull it off anyway)
This approach seems valid.
Douglas MacArthur demanded Japan's unconditional surrender but was opposed to dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. He demanded the Japanese emperor publicly state he was not divine, yet refused to try him for war crimes. The British wanted to hang him.
This approach pacified the Japanese but didn't humiliate them. They even lionized MacArthur and rebuilt their country.
Could a similar strong approach toward ordinary Palestinians and other Arabs have a similar positive outcome?
What's sad is caring so little for the truth that you would equate Israel with the Nazis. You accuse me of nihilism, but it's Hamas that celebrates death and you defend them.
This from the person who eagerly calls for the murder of 2 Million people in the Gaza Strip. And probably also yearns for the 3 Million in the West Bank to be murdered as well. But why stop there -- how about the 11 Million in Jordan or the 6 Million in Lebanon. And don't forget about the 88 Million in Iran or the 43 Million in Iraq. When the neo-Nazis start dreaming of mass murder, one wonders if there is any limit to their bloodlust.
Please. They'll surrender way before that many die. But starting with Gaza is a moral imperative, which we will again fail to carry out and this will all repeat again in a few years as it has done so for decades because the West is crippled by altruistic morality and has its own share of religious conservatives who would undermine any competent response annihilating the West's enemies.
As I said, you long for the massacre of hundreds of millions. A true Nazi.
No, that's you.
I'm advocating for stopping Nazi's, not trying to protect them like you are.
Hitler, Putin, Stalin, Mao, Kim, etc, couldn't have said it better.
“We love death like our enemies love life! We love Martyrdom, the way in which [Hamas] leaders died.” Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh
"Today you [Israelis] are fighting divine soldiers, who love death for Allah like you love life, and who compete among themselves for Martyrdom like you flee from death." Hamas leader Muhammad Deif
What you're saying, yes.
I'm the one calling for their decisive defeat. You're the one defending these monsters and their modern counterparts.
Sober response? What would that look like? How many lives of its own citizens should Israel sacrifice to this "sober response"? If it takes leveling Gaza like the Romans leveled Carthage to protect its citizens and sovereignty, then that's what Israel MUST do.
"If it takes leveling Gaza like the Romans leveled Carthage to protect its citizens and sovereignty, then that's what Israel MUST do."
It is sad how much some people revere the Nazis and their approach to "governing" conquered territory. Yes, Israel was founded on the mass murder of thousands and thousands of Muslims and the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands (the Nazi practice) -- and they celebrate it to this day. So we can be sure that we will see thousands of Palestinians massacred over the next several months as Netanyahu and his cronies exact "revenge" on the Palestinians with the active encouragement of the United States government and the governments of the other "civilized", developed nations. And I'm sure you will be celebrating every single death.
Nazis were religious conservatives (fundamentally similar to Hamas) who were murdering innocent people as part of their irrational, mystical and collectivist world view.
Destroying the Nazi's, including bombing men women and children by the millions, was a moral imperative. Likewise, destroying Hamas, including any of their men women and children, is a moral imperative. It MUST be done, and it is righteous to do so. As with the Nazis', so with Hamas, the moral responsibility for any of their innocent dead is on them.
And Israel was NOT founded on mass murder of Muslims. Israel was founded on land purchased from absentee landlords (mostly Turkish), by British Jews. Then they drained the swamps, built towns, etc, etc.
Everything else, is BS and lies, used as rationalizations by the same religious conservative, mystics and collectivists as always.
Even the term "Palestinian" is a reference to a Greek ethnic group that first settled the area (then called Judaea) and fought wars with the Jewish tribes. The land was renamed Palestine by the Romans as part of their attempts to subjugate the Jewish population.
It has nothing to do with the Arabs squatting their today. They are NOT Palestinians.
But once Germany surrendered the bombing stopped, did it not? The goal is for the aggressor in this case Palestinians to seek survival and thus peace by unconditional surrender.
Ofcourse. But they will never have an incentive to surrender if we don't show that we're prepared to really destroy them completely. Then they will cave so quickly that heads will actually roll that this wasn't done decades ago.
Exactly.
But sadly mainstream morality (altruism) and Western foreign policy experts who are utterly corrupted by this, will never support decisive action like this.
I look at this all with jaw agape. I cannot imagine a solution. My fantasy would be to bundle up the Israeli hard right, and Hamas, and send them all to Antarctica in perpetuity. But of course it is a fantasy.
The solution is to destroy Hamas.
I think that Hamas is repulsive. But an impossible solution is indeed not a solution. Hamas clearly has some serious support among Gazans. Is that majority support, or only significant minority support? I cannot say. If one accepts that destroying Hamas is even possible, one cannot, I think, avoid the conclusion that in order to destroy it, a huge number of innocent human beings must also be sacrificed, the result of which is as likely, IMHO, to strengthen support for Hamas among the population, as to destroy Hamas.
But if that was true then by your logic Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would be stronger than ever today.
The opposite is the case. They were destroyed, even at the cost of bombing entire cities to rubble, including their women and children, and even using nukes.
This is because back then we had the moral clarity to understand that the responsibility for everything that happens is on THEM.
Hamas, Russia, etc, today's villains, are not anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. They are miniscule and pathetic. It is inexcusable that they all have not been destroyed and broken into unconditional surrender decades ago.
So, I think not only is destroying Hamas possible, but it should be much easier than previous similar enemies we have successfully (and righteously) destroyed.
But more importantly, I think it is the MORAL thing to do and to be calling for.
If the destruction of Hamas is your single-minded goal and you don't care about anything else then you are basically saying that you also don't care about the destruction of the Palestinian people. That is "final solution" talk, more akin the the Nazis.
That's like saying that stopping evil is evil.
To elaborate:
When the Nazi's engaged in their final solution, it was an initiatory and mass-rights violation. That's what made it immoral/evil.
Doing the same thing to Nazi's (like Hamas) is both retaliatory and in defence of individual rights. That makes it a MORAL act.
Of course, unlike Nazis we will accept unconditional surrender but if no surrender is forthcoming then it must be done and on their heads be it. But the point is that these are not the same, these are OPPOSITE acts because of initiation vs retaliation and violating rights vs protecting rights.
But you don't see it this way because you've accepted uncritically the mainstream morality of altruism. I.e. you believe that sacrificing the individual for a greater good, or sacrificing an innocent man for the sins of others is moral.
So, by this logic, Israeli's will have to be sacrificed for the sins of Hamas.
By this logic, you end up viewing the Nazis/Hamas as victims because they are perpetrators and actual victims (Israelis acting in retaliation) as being Nazi's for the crime of being victims acting in retaliation.
It's twisted and backwards.
Until the mainstream can see the evils of altruism and how twisted it make everything, it's not possible to even coherently approach these subjects and this cycle of violence will continue.
Ah! I'm talking to an Objectivist, I see....Probably a Peikoffian, which means in your own moral universe doesn't share ordinary moral intuitions or the long intellectual tradition of just war theory or other serious ethical reflections on war.
The real blocking factor here is the religious belief that G-d gave Palestine to Hebrews.
Can't be fixed. When Hamas sinks an American ship, big war will start: Usa vs Iran, China, Russia.
Most people, Israelis included, are wrong on this point. It's not ancient Jewish roots, or the ridiculous idea that god promised them the land which gives Israel its legitimacy to govern. It's its form of government; one which, despite its many short-comings, aims to protect the rights of all its citizens, not just Jews. It's no surprise Israel has become a country of opportunity and flourishing.
I truly doubt most Jews believe that. They simply want their homeland and why not?
Palestinians should also have their own, whether they've had it in the past or not.
But, of course, when Israel attacked the Liberty and massacred the 34 crewmen, the U.S. government had no problem with it. It appears there is no crime that Israel could commit that the U.S. would not ignore or embrace.
Oh come on. That was a case of mistaken identity and Israel admitted it, plus paid compensation to victims families. And they were hardly massacred in the way that Hamas targeted hapless unarmed Israeli civilians.
"That was a case of mistaken identity ..."
Sure it was ... and we know that this is the case because Israel and the U.S. Government (and Iraq had massive stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction that we stopped from wiping out the U.S. by mere minutes) said it was and we know that they are pure as the wind blown snow and therefore anything they say is "Word of God" truth. And no one was murdered in 1948 and no ethnic cleansing occurred, again, because Israel says so. As I said, for much of the U.S. and for the U.S. Government there is no crime Israel has ever committed or could ever commit that would not be ignored or embraced -- just as you have shown here.
🙄🙄🙄
But we should believe because YOU say so?
Demented true believer