1. I was talking about Peterson specifically, not "anything genuinely diverse"
2. I'm not doing it because anyone in power told me to
3. You need to learn to read better :P
The reason I stopped listening to Peterson is because he is mentally retarded and his vapid logic infuriates me, as he has amply demonstrated for several years now. As a result of avoiding his conspiracy-laden tweets, my life is much happier and more stress free.
The idea that Russia is part of the West is exactly the opposite of what Vladimir Putin believes. There is a longstanding debate among Russians about whether Russia is part of Europe. The first principle of Putinism is that Russia is decidedly NOT part of Europe. Attempting to bring Russia into the European fold is the essence of what it means to be anti-Russian, according to Putin's worldview. So, Putin does not see himself fighting in a civil war with fellow Western nations. He sees himself as fighting a war of preemptive defense against decadent Western liberalism, an ideology alien to Russia.
Until a few weeks ago, Jordan Peterson was a champion of Western liberal values, such as freedom of expression. I find it the height of irony that he is now defending Putin, a self-declared enemy of those same values.
Are you sure about your analysis? They literally refer to themselves in Moscow was the 4th Rome. That seems very much amenable to being the final outpost of the West. Russia sees themselves as the last remaining bastion of Christendom, and in that sense, they are as West as Christendom was.
In its original context, in the late 15th century, the Third Rome notion (not Fourth Rome) was an apocalyptic narrative about the collapse of Christendom, with Moscow being the last outpost of "true" Christian civilization following the fall of Constantinople to the Turks. But it is premised on the idea that the Western Church, headquartered in Rome, had "fallen" through apostasy when it broke communion with Constantinople. And then Constantinople had fallen to the Turks as a divine punishment for its many attempts at reunion with apostate Rome. So, the Third Rome rhetoric is anti-Western at its core.
In the view of Catholics, the first Rome still stands. They don't even like the idea of Constantinople as the New Rome, despite the fact that it is enshrined in various canons of Ecumenical Councils that Catholics otherwise affirm. And, of course, Constantinople is still regarded by Orthodox Christians as first in honor among Orthodox churches, the pretensions of Moscow notwithstanding.
Thanks. Great piece. Peterson is another alt-right fascist at heart. Nothing surprising at all. Murder and mayhem in the pursuit of some cultural purity is core rightwing ideology these days.
What is the point of paying attention to Peterson?
But I have to push back on "there are no mass graves filled with the victims of the culture wars". Graves no, but thousands of mutilated and sterilized children, yes. Which is why, at age 66 and having voted straight Democrat all my life, I am now voting straight Republican.
Mark, I won’t debate the primary point about transgender surgery and whether it is right or wrong. Your beliefs are established, and way too much time on social media is spent by people shouting back and forth at each other to no purpose. But I will offer a viewpoint that single issue voting is how we ended up with Trump, as millions of evangelical voters justified their vote for him through the prism of single issue voting. They got what they wanted, but at a terrible, terrible cost to the fabric of democracy. In terms of voting Republican, you buy the ticket you’re taking the whole ride. Critical race theory BS, voting rights limitations, book banning . . . all of it. Perhaps there’s a better way to work toward what you believe than joining the crazy train that the Republican Party has become. And I say that as a 65 year old who until 2016 had voted for the Republican candidate for President in every election in my lifetime.
I am willing to take all of it, especially because I also think you're wrong about CRT: many many kids ARE being taught that they are divided into oppressors and oppressed based on skin color, there is no question whatsoever that this IS happening in many schools. If you deny this, you are simply refusing to look at the well established facts. As for "fabric of democracy", I would be hounded out of my job (if my identity were known) by left-wing activists. So much for "democracy". I will take the christianist fascists over the woke totalitarians any day of the week.
None of that is even remotely relevant to the issue at hand: whether Putin's invasion of Ukraine is either justified or understandable simply because trans-activists. He isn't. In any case all you've done here is make a bunch of claims with no real evidence at all.
I'm not unsympathetic to a negative response to kids being physically transitioned before there brains fully mature. I can't begin to imagine why it would move me to not fight as hard as possible to fight the assault on democracy coming from the Republican party. The only political vehicle for that opposition is the Democratic party.
Mark, you’re talking about a minuscule percentage of damage - if indeed those kids 1) come to regret their choices and 2) would have survived the suicides so many choose bc they can’t live the gender they want. It’s so far from a meaningful comparison that it belongs in a completely different post.
Not at all miniscule, and the suicide rate is actually higher among those who transition after other confounding factors are taken into account. You can read up on this if you like.
Those teenagers are transgender, meaning they were born with the condition where they sincerely feel they are in the wrong body. The feeling can be so extreme that it leads many to suicide.
The surgical interventions can lead to sterilization and mutilation. But it is what they want. There is a wide consensus amongst every professional health authority, including the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American society of Pediatrics, that so long as this decision is made together with a licensed doctor, psychologist, and parent or guardian, it overwhelmingly leads to better outcomes for the teenagers who choose this operation.
If you don't believe me, take a look at the NYTimes linked article you posted. Where they write "condemned" near the start of the article, you should see a clickable link to a statement by USPATH on the issue which details all the evidence in favour of transgender care.
Transgenderism is a real mental health issue, and at the moment, this is the only way to provide relief
Your claim that "this is the only way to provide relief" is simply not known to be true, and furthermore goes against treatment protocols for other body dysphorias (eg anorexia).
Most youth with gender dysphoria or who are gender nonconforming desist during adolescence and many of them realize they are same sex attracted, provided they're not exposed to gender identity indoctrination.
Peterson seemed more grounded in his job as college professor than political pundit. I kind of see his weakness is his intuition which is very good at lining up unrelated things into a pattern which is NOT a pattern, but one little random aspect of reality, and "seeing patterns" is what allows you to raise up bullies as heroes and ignore everything that doesn't fit the pattern.
I recall a some years ago, before the gender wars, his pet peeve was postmodernism, which apparently contained moral relativism that allows anyone to do anything they like as long as they can rationalize it. So, sure, sounds problematic. But then he has a weird debate with Sam Harris and fights tooth and nail for the idea that there is no absolute truth (same as his dreaded postmodernism) , but some sort of evolutionary truth that is basically "If it helped your ancestors survive and propagate, its truth, because the losers are not here to defend themselves." So I could try to see what he was trying to say, and I think there is probably a "mythic truth" in the sense of Joseph Campbell's "Myths to live by" and maybe in the long run, moral degeneracy is self-limiting, and we can safely trust higher spiritual values, like the Jesus parable sort, that turn the world upside down and make the weak strong, and the strong weak, can win in the end, if only because they give meaning and people are willing to die for meaning, and the willingness to sacrifices is somehow higher than the mere selfish gene that says the powerful always win, which is still statistically true.
I think there's only so many contradictions and nonsense a person's brain can hold until it breaks under the pressure. A pressure made worse by pretending to be an intellectual. I think he medicated for quite a while to deal with it, did his coma detox (in Russia funnily enough) and here we are.
I previously enjoyed some of Mr. Peterson's straightforward advice, a number of years ago when he was just getting started with his University of Toronto lectures being uploaded to Youtube. Some of his discussions about Disney and various archetypes were absolutely fascinating.
I think that his venture into global geopolitics might be a bit misguided and it's for that reason that I also stay away from Political Discussions as best that I can.
Jordan Peterson is no one's "useful" or "useless" idiot, and the fact that the author frames his disagreements with Peterson in such a manner says much more about the author than about Mr. Peterson.
Just so you know, authors virtually never compose the titles of their articles. That said, how would you characterize endorsement of a genocidal invasion?
Excellent piece Tom! And thank you for your efforts to help Ukrainians!
He is not an intellectual anymore, and not even a lifestyle coach. He is now into right-wing culture warrior collectivism and Patreon opportunism
At this point I have just stopped listening to anything Peterson has to say and my life is better for it.
Yes, refusing to listen to anything genuinely diverse is now kewl. After all, those presently in power tell you so.
1. I was talking about Peterson specifically, not "anything genuinely diverse"
2. I'm not doing it because anyone in power told me to
3. You need to learn to read better :P
The reason I stopped listening to Peterson is because he is mentally retarded and his vapid logic infuriates me, as he has amply demonstrated for several years now. As a result of avoiding his conspiracy-laden tweets, my life is much happier and more stress free.
Have a wonderful day!
The idea that Russia is part of the West is exactly the opposite of what Vladimir Putin believes. There is a longstanding debate among Russians about whether Russia is part of Europe. The first principle of Putinism is that Russia is decidedly NOT part of Europe. Attempting to bring Russia into the European fold is the essence of what it means to be anti-Russian, according to Putin's worldview. So, Putin does not see himself fighting in a civil war with fellow Western nations. He sees himself as fighting a war of preemptive defense against decadent Western liberalism, an ideology alien to Russia.
Until a few weeks ago, Jordan Peterson was a champion of Western liberal values, such as freedom of expression. I find it the height of irony that he is now defending Putin, a self-declared enemy of those same values.
Are you sure about your analysis? They literally refer to themselves in Moscow was the 4th Rome. That seems very much amenable to being the final outpost of the West. Russia sees themselves as the last remaining bastion of Christendom, and in that sense, they are as West as Christendom was.
Yes, I'm sure.
In its original context, in the late 15th century, the Third Rome notion (not Fourth Rome) was an apocalyptic narrative about the collapse of Christendom, with Moscow being the last outpost of "true" Christian civilization following the fall of Constantinople to the Turks. But it is premised on the idea that the Western Church, headquartered in Rome, had "fallen" through apostasy when it broke communion with Constantinople. And then Constantinople had fallen to the Turks as a divine punishment for its many attempts at reunion with apostate Rome. So, the Third Rome rhetoric is anti-Western at its core.
In the view of Catholics, the first Rome still stands. They don't even like the idea of Constantinople as the New Rome, despite the fact that it is enshrined in various canons of Ecumenical Councils that Catholics otherwise affirm. And, of course, Constantinople is still regarded by Orthodox Christians as first in honor among Orthodox churches, the pretensions of Moscow notwithstanding.
Peterson did his drug rehab in a Russian hospital. I think he may have allegiance issues.
Thanks. Great piece. Peterson is another alt-right fascist at heart. Nothing surprising at all. Murder and mayhem in the pursuit of some cultural purity is core rightwing ideology these days.
What a strange rationalization of an obviously brutal and violent aggression.
I wonder if he'd make the case for Palestinians invading Israel because of its degenerate western values.
I dunno. Maybe he's back on the yam yam.
What is the point of paying attention to Peterson?
But I have to push back on "there are no mass graves filled with the victims of the culture wars". Graves no, but thousands of mutilated and sterilized children, yes. Which is why, at age 66 and having voted straight Democrat all my life, I am now voting straight Republican.
Mark, I won’t debate the primary point about transgender surgery and whether it is right or wrong. Your beliefs are established, and way too much time on social media is spent by people shouting back and forth at each other to no purpose. But I will offer a viewpoint that single issue voting is how we ended up with Trump, as millions of evangelical voters justified their vote for him through the prism of single issue voting. They got what they wanted, but at a terrible, terrible cost to the fabric of democracy. In terms of voting Republican, you buy the ticket you’re taking the whole ride. Critical race theory BS, voting rights limitations, book banning . . . all of it. Perhaps there’s a better way to work toward what you believe than joining the crazy train that the Republican Party has become. And I say that as a 65 year old who until 2016 had voted for the Republican candidate for President in every election in my lifetime.
I am willing to take all of it, especially because I also think you're wrong about CRT: many many kids ARE being taught that they are divided into oppressors and oppressed based on skin color, there is no question whatsoever that this IS happening in many schools. If you deny this, you are simply refusing to look at the well established facts. As for "fabric of democracy", I would be hounded out of my job (if my identity were known) by left-wing activists. So much for "democracy". I will take the christianist fascists over the woke totalitarians any day of the week.
The best way to beat the "but CRT is only taught in law schools" dodge is to substitute "applied CRT" for "CRT."
If you really believe all of that you are a fool.
One of us definitely is.
Here is what your side supports:
https://substack.com/inbox/post/88974508
None of that is even remotely relevant to the issue at hand: whether Putin's invasion of Ukraine is either justified or understandable simply because trans-activists. He isn't. In any case all you've done here is make a bunch of claims with no real evidence at all.
I'm not unsympathetic to a negative response to kids being physically transitioned before there brains fully mature. I can't begin to imagine why it would move me to not fight as hard as possible to fight the assault on democracy coming from the Republican party. The only political vehicle for that opposition is the Democratic party.
Friend: You need a brain transplant, not a new political party
Mark, you’re talking about a minuscule percentage of damage - if indeed those kids 1) come to regret their choices and 2) would have survived the suicides so many choose bc they can’t live the gender they want. It’s so far from a meaningful comparison that it belongs in a completely different post.
Not at all miniscule, and the suicide rate is actually higher among those who transition after other confounding factors are taken into account. You can read up on this if you like.
What is the death rate compared with that of Ukraine civilians?
Not relevant, as you very well know.
I sincerely doubt any of this is true.
Every word is true.
Do you need data on the mutilations and sterilizations? Here, for example, is a recent NYT article about the mutilations: "More Trans Teens Are Choosing ‘Top Surgery’" https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/health/top-surgery-transgender-teenagers.html
No, I doubt you ever voted Democratic, you're just a weird crank.
How about we actually debate their arguments instead of turning them further against voting democrat ever again?
My contention is they are dishonest and never voted for a democrat.
Not only have I voted exclusiively for Democrats from age 18 in 1973 up through 2021, I've also worked as a volunteer on multiple Democrat campaigns.
But I am now a single-issue voter on fighting medically unwarranted mutilations of children, and for women's sex-based rights:
https://womensliberationfront.org
https://womensdeclarationusa.com
https://www.lesbians-united.org
Dear MarkS
Those teenagers are transgender, meaning they were born with the condition where they sincerely feel they are in the wrong body. The feeling can be so extreme that it leads many to suicide.
The surgical interventions can lead to sterilization and mutilation. But it is what they want. There is a wide consensus amongst every professional health authority, including the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American society of Pediatrics, that so long as this decision is made together with a licensed doctor, psychologist, and parent or guardian, it overwhelmingly leads to better outcomes for the teenagers who choose this operation.
If you don't believe me, take a look at the NYTimes linked article you posted. Where they write "condemned" near the start of the article, you should see a clickable link to a statement by USPATH on the issue which details all the evidence in favour of transgender care.
Transgenderism is a real mental health issue, and at the moment, this is the only way to provide relief
The medical consensus is not based on science, but on ideology. A recent Reuters article delves into the actual, verifiable facts: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care
Your claim that "this is the only way to provide relief" is simply not known to be true, and furthermore goes against treatment protocols for other body dysphorias (eg anorexia).
You should also read some of the stories of detransitioners, like this one: https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name
More from detransitioners: https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/detransitioners-respond-a-letter
Most youth with gender dysphoria or who are gender nonconforming desist during adolescence and many of them realize they are same sex attracted, provided they're not exposed to gender identity indoctrination.
Peterson seemed more grounded in his job as college professor than political pundit. I kind of see his weakness is his intuition which is very good at lining up unrelated things into a pattern which is NOT a pattern, but one little random aspect of reality, and "seeing patterns" is what allows you to raise up bullies as heroes and ignore everything that doesn't fit the pattern.
I recall a some years ago, before the gender wars, his pet peeve was postmodernism, which apparently contained moral relativism that allows anyone to do anything they like as long as they can rationalize it. So, sure, sounds problematic. But then he has a weird debate with Sam Harris and fights tooth and nail for the idea that there is no absolute truth (same as his dreaded postmodernism) , but some sort of evolutionary truth that is basically "If it helped your ancestors survive and propagate, its truth, because the losers are not here to defend themselves." So I could try to see what he was trying to say, and I think there is probably a "mythic truth" in the sense of Joseph Campbell's "Myths to live by" and maybe in the long run, moral degeneracy is self-limiting, and we can safely trust higher spiritual values, like the Jesus parable sort, that turn the world upside down and make the weak strong, and the strong weak, can win in the end, if only because they give meaning and people are willing to die for meaning, and the willingness to sacrifices is somehow higher than the mere selfish gene that says the powerful always win, which is still statistically true.
Thank you. Did not know this. I was made aware of the low level of mental capability that Peterson really has. Still, shocking how crazy this is
Whatever may or may not be the harm or benefit of transitioning, the harm to kids from Republican policies is orders of magnitude greater.
He is so far gone now (Peterson). Was it the all meat diet?? F*cking guy looks visibly physically ill...😳🙄 too.
I think there's only so many contradictions and nonsense a person's brain can hold until it breaks under the pressure. A pressure made worse by pretending to be an intellectual. I think he medicated for quite a while to deal with it, did his coma detox (in Russia funnily enough) and here we are.
Don't overlook Jordan Peterson's whiny voice and his perpetually indignant and self-righteous delivery.
I consider the source, but this doesn't sound like a diatribe.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence
I previously enjoyed some of Mr. Peterson's straightforward advice, a number of years ago when he was just getting started with his University of Toronto lectures being uploaded to Youtube. Some of his discussions about Disney and various archetypes were absolutely fascinating.
I think that his venture into global geopolitics might be a bit misguided and it's for that reason that I also stay away from Political Discussions as best that I can.
Jordan Peterson is no one's "useful" or "useless" idiot, and the fact that the author frames his disagreements with Peterson in such a manner says much more about the author than about Mr. Peterson.
Just so you know, authors virtually never compose the titles of their articles. That said, how would you characterize endorsement of a genocidal invasion?
Peterson is not wrong here