OMG what a wonderful conversation. I am only a conservative observer of libertarians. I have only an "Idiots Guide to Libertarianism" level of understanding of the philosophy. The one thing I do know is that every American from left to right falls somewhere on the libertarian spectrum.
So this conversation brought so much clarity to the dilemma so many of us face.
One thing that came to mind is that ersatz libertarians like the tech-bro billionaires reminded me of Ayn Rand heroes turned into Frankenstein monsters. The irony to me is that many of them are actually in the ascendency surfing on the tidal wave of populist enthusiasm. And as you said in the conversation probably why so many libertarians are willing to shed some principles in order to accomplish others. If dismantling the administrative state is accomplished then setting aside free speech and even market principles is worth it.
I am not sure other than writing opinion pieces and engaging in the hand to hand combat of the antisocial media there is much that professional libertarians (or anyone else in opposition) can do to change the outcome for what is to come. The reason is that without occupying a space in the public (popular) consciousness it is difficult to move the ballots required to stop, let alone reverse, the damage that will be done.
Someone said in the conversation that the Gestapo would not be showing up on our door steps. But from 1921 until 1934 Hitler used his paramilitary brown shirts (SA) as his enforcers. They would show up on the doorstep of ordinary citizens (often their neighbors) to intimidate them into compliance. The Gestapo replaced and professionalized the SA. Trump has released 1600 of paramilitary adjacent people back into the streets ready to regroup and organize further on behalf of Trump. In Florida Governor Ron Desantis tried (unsuccessfully) exploring how he could incorporate armed citizens into militias to assist local law enforcement in the wake of the BLM "riots."
Sorry for the length of this post.
Some one (Shikha?) said "But so long as they can go about with their basic day-to-day functioning, they don’t really feel the effect of authoritarianism." And that is a real problem. Most people vote when they have been effected negatively by policies and sometimes they will vote to bring about policies the see positively. BUT the vast majority of us live our day to day lives not directly effected by anything the government does. Our lives are only effected at the margins and we are only aware when something goes wrong or when we write our check to the IRS. My own taxes haven't changed much (as a percentage of income earned) for the last 40 years due to tax raises or tax cuts.
The people who are effected most are those tied into the political industrial complex. Think tank and media elites. Who gets the funding. Who gets the grants. Who gets the political donations and who gets the federal contracts.
So the problem for professional libertarians and anyone engaged in political parties is how to communicate their concerns and translate them into the concerns of the average citizen. Obviously the Democrats have muffed that. The 10 Democrats in the Senate voted for their own political survival and will certainly face opposition, or at least the antisocial media backlash, from the left base of the party. One curious defector was Jon Ossoff of Georgia who is likely to face Marjorie Taylor Greene in the next election. Also Laken Riley was killed on his own turf of Georgia.
Thanks for letting me get this stuff out of my mind!
I read Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains and am still reading Steven Teles' The Rise of the Conservative Legal Movement and see Libertarians as using racial segregation to get support for Libertarianism. In other words, they may have been more interested in gutting the public sector than in keeping Blacks in their "place," but the end result was horse they were riding turned out to take the bit in his teeth and go full White supremecist right. There is now no separating Libertarianism and racism, taking us back to the 50s in Virginia. What do you think?
To say the that the Biden administration and the Democrats have done nothing illegal or participated in lawfare seems ridiculous when you consider all the pardons and preemptive pardons that Biden issued. Of course, your kind will say these are necessary because of Trump. Heads I win, tails you lose. Libertarians frame the issues in this way so they can say they were right whatever the outcome. They are no less bias than conservatives or liberals.
I don't think that is the libertarian perspective at all. The illegality of the preemptive pardons is yet to be determined by the courts. I would hope that AG Bondi tries to have them overturned and I believe the only conclusion the Supremes could make is that they (along with Ford's preemptive pardon of Nixon) are in fact null and void.
On the other hand the Supremes have already pretty much made Nixon's dictum "If the President does it, it is not illegal" the law of the land.
It is Peter Thiel's conception of the free market. I worked for that creep for 8 years. Is is possible that I know more technolibertarians than you do?
And there are some who don't! They even write for this platform. The issue is not where individual libertarians stand. The issue is about the movement as a whole. It took a firm stance against socialism. It is not able to get its act together for the neo-right's authortiarianism! It is splintered and doesn't know how to react or position itself.
OMG what a wonderful conversation. I am only a conservative observer of libertarians. I have only an "Idiots Guide to Libertarianism" level of understanding of the philosophy. The one thing I do know is that every American from left to right falls somewhere on the libertarian spectrum.
So this conversation brought so much clarity to the dilemma so many of us face.
One thing that came to mind is that ersatz libertarians like the tech-bro billionaires reminded me of Ayn Rand heroes turned into Frankenstein monsters. The irony to me is that many of them are actually in the ascendency surfing on the tidal wave of populist enthusiasm. And as you said in the conversation probably why so many libertarians are willing to shed some principles in order to accomplish others. If dismantling the administrative state is accomplished then setting aside free speech and even market principles is worth it.
I am not sure other than writing opinion pieces and engaging in the hand to hand combat of the antisocial media there is much that professional libertarians (or anyone else in opposition) can do to change the outcome for what is to come. The reason is that without occupying a space in the public (popular) consciousness it is difficult to move the ballots required to stop, let alone reverse, the damage that will be done.
Someone said in the conversation that the Gestapo would not be showing up on our door steps. But from 1921 until 1934 Hitler used his paramilitary brown shirts (SA) as his enforcers. They would show up on the doorstep of ordinary citizens (often their neighbors) to intimidate them into compliance. The Gestapo replaced and professionalized the SA. Trump has released 1600 of paramilitary adjacent people back into the streets ready to regroup and organize further on behalf of Trump. In Florida Governor Ron Desantis tried (unsuccessfully) exploring how he could incorporate armed citizens into militias to assist local law enforcement in the wake of the BLM "riots."
Sorry for the length of this post.
Some one (Shikha?) said "But so long as they can go about with their basic day-to-day functioning, they don’t really feel the effect of authoritarianism." And that is a real problem. Most people vote when they have been effected negatively by policies and sometimes they will vote to bring about policies the see positively. BUT the vast majority of us live our day to day lives not directly effected by anything the government does. Our lives are only effected at the margins and we are only aware when something goes wrong or when we write our check to the IRS. My own taxes haven't changed much (as a percentage of income earned) for the last 40 years due to tax raises or tax cuts.
The people who are effected most are those tied into the political industrial complex. Think tank and media elites. Who gets the funding. Who gets the grants. Who gets the political donations and who gets the federal contracts.
So the problem for professional libertarians and anyone engaged in political parties is how to communicate their concerns and translate them into the concerns of the average citizen. Obviously the Democrats have muffed that. The 10 Democrats in the Senate voted for their own political survival and will certainly face opposition, or at least the antisocial media backlash, from the left base of the party. One curious defector was Jon Ossoff of Georgia who is likely to face Marjorie Taylor Greene in the next election. Also Laken Riley was killed on his own turf of Georgia.
Thanks for letting me get this stuff out of my mind!
Excellent analysis...thanks!!
Thoughtful, lucid and worthwhile conversation. Thank you.
Any pol with ReTrumplican't leanings will NOT stand up to the King of Felonistan.
They cherish the slight power they have in government more than the longer term love of country.
To answer the headlined question...the unserious Repubs surrendered in 2016.
The only interesting note from the caucus will be in Mitch McConnell will get back at Trump through his votes.
Thanks so much for pointing me at the Bulwark - Reason debate! What a delicious take down of those two pompous fools.
I found the part where Sarah Longwell threw the Cato pocket Constitution at their feet particularly powerful. I recommend watching the whole thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNwcQv4KjS8
I read Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains and am still reading Steven Teles' The Rise of the Conservative Legal Movement and see Libertarians as using racial segregation to get support for Libertarianism. In other words, they may have been more interested in gutting the public sector than in keeping Blacks in their "place," but the end result was horse they were riding turned out to take the bit in his teeth and go full White supremecist right. There is now no separating Libertarianism and racism, taking us back to the 50s in Virginia. What do you think?
To say the that the Biden administration and the Democrats have done nothing illegal or participated in lawfare seems ridiculous when you consider all the pardons and preemptive pardons that Biden issued. Of course, your kind will say these are necessary because of Trump. Heads I win, tails you lose. Libertarians frame the issues in this way so they can say they were right whatever the outcome. They are no less bias than conservatives or liberals.
You seem new to this site: https://www.theunpopulist.net/p/joe-biden-will-go-down-as-a-failed?r=6jqoy&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
I don't think that is the libertarian perspective at all. The illegality of the preemptive pardons is yet to be determined by the courts. I would hope that AG Bondi tries to have them overturned and I believe the only conclusion the Supremes could make is that they (along with Ford's preemptive pardon of Nixon) are in fact null and void.
On the other hand the Supremes have already pretty much made Nixon's dictum "If the President does it, it is not illegal" the law of the land.
Anyone with a cool million to spare can buy their way into Donny's sphere of influence.
If you're a libertarian, what's not to like about that? It's the free market at work.
That’s silly! It’s no one’s conception of the free market to buy market share through politicians.
It is Peter Thiel's conception of the free market. I worked for that creep for 8 years. Is is possible that I know more technolibertarians than you do?
That might be what Thiel wants but it is not the libertarian conception of the free market or even his.
I suppose in a truly libertarian society, politicians would have no power, so no reason for anyone to pay them off.
"And can we count on the libertarian movement as such to unequivocally stand up to his authoritarianism this time around?"
Why would they? Many US right-libertarians support Trump after all.
https://reason.com/2024/11/04/the-peculiar-phenomenon-of-libertarians-supporting-donald-trump/
And there are some who don't! They even write for this platform. The issue is not where individual libertarians stand. The issue is about the movement as a whole. It took a firm stance against socialism. It is not able to get its act together for the neo-right's authortiarianism! It is splintered and doesn't know how to react or position itself.